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Theory vs practice disconnect
Topic Started: Sunday, 20. September 2015, 16:22 (1,034 Views)
RadioDaze
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I have come to realize that the theory of antenna systems is very interesting but unfortunately very hard to realize in many typical/practical installations. (I can neither achieve the minimum ideal of 1 wavelength height from antenna base, portable or at home)

It is also very hard to quantify when related to DX efficacy with many chance occurrences which make relative comparison and performance evaluations almost impossible in any meaningful way.

You cannot see your elevation lobes, you cannot see your TOA, you cannot see your ground losses, or any beneficial or negative ground reflections, you cannot see if common code currents are on your coax easily and it's effects. You have to simply follow the theory (often related to conditions that do not even exist in the real world) as close as you can and see what happens. I find that a quite unsatisfying aspect of the hobby. (even if you get out ok)

I certainly look forwards to the antenna test that is forthcoming but I doubt it will convey useful information about DXing, merely best line of sight/"ground wave" performance. (itself of some interest)

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26PS001
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26 Charlie Tango 1523

I think that test will be very interesting, especially the cheap vs the expensive, you can see the differences in noise levels again a very interesting part of the system.

I say make an antenna or put up a bought one and just see how it goes. Ive seen me spend many hours altering antennas in the past, making them the way they are supposedly should be made and Ive found they have not worked as well.

Im finding more and more the antenna side the most exciting part of the hobby, making them now for me is the way forward, making them cheap and basic is the way forward it makes the hobby more affordable for many.
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Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14
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RadioDaze
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Not to mention any fixes of theoretical implementations for known issues cannot be seen either. You don't really know if your choke or your ground plane or your height or your grounding is making even the slightest amount of difference.

Given a unique situation at every QTH practicality for most seems to be the deciding factor. You do what you can with what you have. I have more flexibility than most being a portable base station but it does not seem to be creating any useful or important differences or conclusions whatever I do. Not that I can actually evaluate it easily anyway, especailly for DX.

That is what makes the antenna test of great interest even if only for comparative line of sight evaluation. It is the only test where you can actually see the differences come into play practically.
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26PS001
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26 Charlie Tango 1523

We all need the theory basics but the practical side is the side that makes the biggest difference. Listening watching the meter etc.

I watched a short youtube video the other day after our discussions about lightning and antennas etc,, Im still studying all of that, anyway it was about grounding, it was a very simple test and showed the benefits of grounding an antenna in this particular environment, it worked for this guy but I would be interested to see how it would do for my antenna as Im not getting interference such as what this guy had but it would be very easy to try it out. maybe another video one day soon.

Here is the video you are well into antennas at the moment so I think you will find it interesting, again its a simple test with no technical theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-0qhYWdbQ
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Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14
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The DB
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Antenna theory is not what most people think it is. It is a theory that is meant to explain and predict the effects of an antenna. It is best used in conjunction with real word experience. Theory and experience build on each other, and complement each other very well. In the end, at the hobbyist level, both are simply tools to build your knowledge in a well rounded way. One without the other, no matter how much of the one you have, is incomplete.

Think of it this way, antenna experience tells you what happened while antenna theory tells you why it happened. People with lots of experience and not so much knowledge of why things happened the way they did are the causes of many of the myths that exist in the CB world even today.


The DB
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Bean
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Just remember Geoff , you will need someone near to you to act as a control station to make sure groundwave conditions haven't changed , over about a forty minute period last night Richard 26CT986 went from 5/0>0/0 and came back at 5/1. Ok that was over 127 +/_ miles and might not have the same effect on your local known keyers but something I think needs to be taken into account given the time to change antenna's. Should be great fun anyway which is what the whole 11m band should be about.
Kevin
Edited by Bean, Sunday, 20. September 2015, 17:12.
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RadioDaze
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Bean
Sunday, 20. September 2015, 17:04
Just remember Geoff , you will need someone near to you to act as a control station to make sure groundwave conditions haven't changed , over about a forty minute period last night Richard 26CT986 went from 5/0>0/0 and came back at 5/1. Ok that was over 127 +/_ miles and might not have the same effect on your local known keyers but something I think needs to be taken into account given the time to change antenna's. Should be great fun anyway which is what the whole 11m band should be about.
Kevin
That all makes good sense The DB, the DX side of things f2 layer hops) is always much more ambiguous and harder to reconcile for me so far.

As a guide with a variety of stations my line of sight is about 50-80 miles of course dependent on RX station heights and the quality of their set up and direction (some directions I fare better than others, also QTH dependent of course). A classic example of this is I contacted 2 stations on the Isle of Wight today. One at R5 S8 and one at S0 R2. A vast difference based on height and quality of set up (S- Metering !) at the other end. North way I also was copied well in Bury St. Edmunds also about 70-80 miles away.

I think distances beyond 70 miles are not going to be reliable indicators and whilst I welcome those reports I do not think they should be given too much weight versus stations within a 5-40 miles capture area which should be less affected by atmospheric variations.
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RadioDaze
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The real question getting to the crux of the issue.

Is there any correlation between and effective vertical monopole antenna for long distance "ground wave"/line of sight/point to point on earth and it's capability as a F2 layer DX antenna ?

I suspect the variables are many between the 2 requirements and it is not an easy question to answer.
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RadioDaze
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I suppose to follow this through I am slightly frustrated at the "it all depends" nature of RF, and extended to this set of bands 10-12 m. That is both the beauty and annoyance at this set of frequencies. Random events have no doubt greatly assisted the propagation of technical myths.

(I think this is basically DX withdrawal symptoms :cheers: )

All you can do is stack odds in your favour so that you put in your best performance with means and practicality of the day/home QTH.
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Northern Crusader
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26 Charlie Tango 1760

RadioDaze
Sunday, 20. September 2015, 16:22

You cannot see your elevation lobes, you cannot see your TOA, you cannot see your ground losses, or any beneficial or negative ground reflections, you cannot see if common code currents are on your coax easily and it's effects. You have to simply follow the theory (often related to conditions that do not even exist in the real world) as close as you can and see what happens. I find that a quite unsatisfying aspect of the hobby. (even if you get out ok)
Rubbish.

You can use a field strength meter to see your elevation lobes. You can measure your ground losses with an antenna analyser by using a quarter wave vertical, measuring the feedpoint impedance and seeing how close to 36.8 Ohms feedpoint impedance you get at resonance. You can see if common mode currents are on your coax by using a RF Ammeter or if you don't have one, a flourescent tube held against or almost touching your coax as you TX.

Your post is basically a "I can't check that the theory matches practice because I don't have the knowledge of how to test or the gear to test it with."

Quote:
 

You don't really know if your choke or your ground plane or your height or your grounding is making even the slightest amount of difference.


I do because I took the time to learn how to test my antenna installation and what I should be looking for, i.e for RF grounding for verticals the feed point impedance of a quarter wave vertical at resonance over a perfect ground is 36.8 Ohms so if I'm not getting that then I've got ground losses....
Edited by Northern Crusader, Monday, 21. September 2015, 01:37.
26CT1760 / M0GVZ
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RadioDaze
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Northern Crusader
Monday, 21. September 2015, 01:31
RadioDaze
Sunday, 20. September 2015, 16:22

You cannot see your elevation lobes, you cannot see your TOA, you cannot see your ground losses, or any beneficial or negative ground reflections, you cannot see if common code currents are on your coax easily and it's effects. You have to simply follow the theory (often related to conditions that do not even exist in the real world) as close as you can and see what happens. I find that a quite unsatisfying aspect of the hobby. (even if you get out ok)
Rubbish.

You can use a field strength meter to see your elevation lobes. You can measure your ground losses with an antenna analyser by using a quarter wave vertical, measuring the feedpoint impedance and seeing how close to 36.8 Ohms feedpoint impedance you get at resonance. You can see if common mode currents are on your coax by using a RF Ammeter or if you don't have one, a flourescent tube held against or almost touching your coax as you TX.

Your post is basically a "I can't check that the theory matches practice because I don't have the knowledge of how to test or the gear to test it with."

Quote:
 

You don't really know if your choke or your ground plane or your height or your grounding is making even the slightest amount of difference.


I do because I took the time to learn how to test my antenna installation and what I should be looking for, i.e for RF grounding for verticals the feed point impedance of a quarter wave vertical at resonance over a perfect ground is 36.8 Ohms so if I'm not getting that then I've got ground losses....
I appreciate the pleasant tone in your response. ;)

So a meter can directly show you your angle of elevation from your antenna ? I do not think so. We have this discussion... how do get up your antenna with the meter in hand that is mounted with the base at 7-10M (or beyond) ? Impractical. In any event it will surely be measuring voltage/current or power/field strength as you move it up the antenna... that does not display TOA's or lobe angles.

I have since found out that ground losses at 10-12M band are to the order of 1dB between different ground conditions from salt bog to desert. So that is a known quantity (or not something you can really change or need to worry about), at least for this band. It becomes MUCH more significant as frequency drops. Thanks for explaining the methodology though with the 1/4 wave GPA. Though I was under the impression that 45 degree angle ground planes (protecting the antenna from earth effects to some degree, that's one of the goals of a ground plane) on a 1/4 GPA made the match 50 Ohms. (as opposed to a dipole which is 75 Ohm)

Won't an RF Ammeter just measure current nodes on your coax ? Or will it only measure what is flowing in the shield surface. (as the centre core is shielded)

Your point in quotes is fair. I don't know everything, but at least I am not pretending I do. I enquire in my own way. There is more than 1 way to ask and/or arrive at a question and to that end I appreciate your response. Better to do that than bury your head in the sand.

I wish an LCD RF "camera" could be developed where you could see multiple parameters and specs looking side on at your antenna system. Lobes/RF energy could be displayed on a screen in real time, take a snapshot and then adjust and then overlay to check the changes.

I am also still very interested to know if there is any correlation between a well performing monopole for line of sight vs F2 layer DX.
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Northern Crusader
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26 Charlie Tango 1760

RadioDaze
Monday, 21. September 2015, 08:05


So a meter can directly show you your angle of elevation from your antenna ? I do not think so. We have this discussion... how do get up your antenna with the meter in hand that is mounted with the base at 7-10M (or beyond) ? Impractical. In any event it will surely be measuring voltage/current or power/field strength as you move it up the antenna... that does not display TOA's or lobe angles.

I have since found out that ground losses at 10-12M band are to the order of 1dB between different ground conditions from salt bog to desert. So that is a known quantity (or not something you can really change or need to worry about), at least for this band. It becomes MUCH more significant as frequency drops. Thanks for explaining the methodology though with the 1/4 wave GPA. Though I was under the impression that 45 degree angle ground planes (protecting the antenna from earth effects to some degree, that's one of the goals of a ground plane) on a 1/4 GPA made the match 50 Ohms. (as opposed to a dipole which is 75 Ohm)

Won't an RF Ammeter just measure current nodes on your coax ? Or will it only measure what is flowing in the shield surface. (as the centre core is shielded)
The practicalities of doing it doesn't alter the fact it can be done. People obviously have done in the past because we have the theory proven.

The problem is you're thinking of it from the wrong approach. RF is fairly scaleable. What that means is we can build a smaller version of an antenna to test at higher frequencies, measure its properties and those properties apply when we build it bigger to work for lower frequencies. Its one reason to get a ham license if you want to experiment building antennas. It allows you to have an idea and if you construct it, to test it on VHF or UHF with a reasonable sized model to do your testing on and take measurements from. Building a Rhombic to test and see how it works and what effects being at different wavelengths above ground have is far easier and more practical if you're building it for 70cm instead of 11m. You only need 2.8 metres of wire instead of 44 metres. You could test the TOA and radiation pattern quite easily with a field strength meter just held in your hand up to 3 wavelengths above the ground, far higher than you could on 11m, as that would be just over the average height of an adult for the 70cm band. Addressing your point of verticals with the base a considerable portion of a wavelength or even more above the ground, an antenna for 11m band with a base 11m off the floor would only need to be 70cm off the floor if you were building the equivalent antenna for the 70cm band.

And yes the meter it does display take off and lobe angles because it is a field strength meter. It is measuring the RF field density at a particular point in three dimensional space. Where you have a lobe in that direction the field strength at that point will be higher than where you have a null or lower gain.


The RF ammeter won't just measure the nodes on the coax when used to measure common mode because the current for those nodes are contained within the inner of the shield and the outer of the centre conductor. You are just measuring current flowing on the outside surface of the braid. Remember that unlike DC current, RF flows on the surface of the conductor, permeating just a few percent into it. You can therefore accurately what is flowing on the outside of the braid (common mode) whilst having the readings being insulated from what is flowing on the inner of the braid..
26CT1760 / M0GVZ
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Nubster
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26 Charlie Tango 050

Does this bloke remind you of someone who was a moderator on here once, who also liked to be-little people, FFS what Geoff is doing its a bit of fun not a NASA test ^o)

Life is too short, so ave a laugh now n then never know you might like it
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RadioDaze
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Northern Crusader
Monday, 21. September 2015, 11:37
RadioDaze
Monday, 21. September 2015, 08:05


So a meter can directly show you your angle of elevation from your antenna ? I do not think so. We have this discussion... how do get up your antenna with the meter in hand that is mounted with the base at 7-10M (or beyond) ? Impractical. In any event it will surely be measuring voltage/current or power/field strength as you move it up the antenna... that does not display TOA's or lobe angles.

I have since found out that ground losses at 10-12M band are to the order of 1dB between different ground conditions from salt bog to desert. So that is a known quantity (or not something you can really change or need to worry about), at least for this band. It becomes MUCH more significant as frequency drops. Thanks for explaining the methodology though with the 1/4 wave GPA. Though I was under the impression that 45 degree angle ground planes (protecting the antenna from earth effects to some degree, that's one of the goals of a ground plane) on a 1/4 GPA made the match 50 Ohms. (as opposed to a dipole which is 75 Ohm)

Won't an RF Ammeter just measure current nodes on your coax ? Or will it only measure what is flowing in the shield surface. (as the centre core is shielded)
The practicalities of doing it doesn't alter the fact it can be done. People obviously have done in the past because we have the theory proven.

The problem is you're thinking of it from the wrong approach. RF is fairly scaleable. What that means is we can build a smaller version of an antenna to test at higher frequencies, measure its properties and those properties apply when we build it bigger to work for lower frequencies. Its one reason to get a ham license if you want to experiment building antennas. It allows you to have an idea and if you construct it, to test it on VHF or UHF with a reasonable sized model to do your testing on and take measurements from. Building a Rhombic to test and see how it works and what effects being at different wavelengths above ground have is far easier and more practical if you're building it for 70cm instead of 11m. You only need 2.8 metres of wire instead of 44 metres. You could test the TOA and radiation pattern quite easily with a field strength meter just held in your hand up to 3 wavelengths above the ground, far higher than you could on 11m, as that would be just over the average height of an adult for the 70cm band. Addressing your point of verticals with the base a considerable portion of a wavelength or even more above the ground, an antenna for 11m band with a base 11m off the floor would only need to be 70cm off the floor if you were building the equivalent antenna for the 70cm band.

And yes the meter it does display take off and lobe angles because it is a field strength meter. It is measuring the RF field density at a particular point in three dimensional space. Where you have a lobe in that direction the field strength at that point will be higher than where you have a null or lower gain.


The RF ammeter won't just measure the nodes on the coax when used to measure common mode because the current for those nodes are contained within the inner of the shield and the outer of the centre conductor. You are just measuring current flowing on the outside surface of the braid. Remember that unlike DC current, RF flows on the surface of the conductor, permeating just a few percent into it. You can therefore accurately what is flowing on the outside of the braid (common mode) whilst having the readings being insulated from what is flowing on the inner of the braid..
"The practicalities of doing it doesn't alter the fact it can be done. People obviously have done in the past because we have the theory proven."

True in part I think but not 100pct sure about that because I have never seen a white paper, photographic or video evidence of people measuring TOA's and elevation lobes (other than online model pictures from antenna software). If you know of some I would very much enjoy seeing it. Until then we have models in a bit of software that do not seem to equate to unique setups/QTH's.

"RF is fairly scaleable. What that means is we can build a smaller version of an antenna to test at higher frequencies, measure its properties and those properties apply when we build it bigger to work for lower frequencies."

I can see your point of view here but for some aspects it is quite a generalized given ground losses as one example are radically different depending on frequency. (but to be fair probably not worth concern at 27mHz, given we are talking +/- 0.5dB differences, if my source was correct) I am not sure if thinking about anything to try and understand it can be labelled wrong, learning is a process. A train of thought is a surely stepping stone to understanding, even a "wrong" one. Failure in itself is a great way to learn and an oft repeated process when people are developing anything new.

"Its one reason to get a ham license if you want to experiment building antennas. "

I am in agreement with that. It is just about every other aspect of being a ham that I am not interested in, being issued a specific call sign, being tagged, in the system, being told what I can do and not do. The authoritarian aspect of it is a major turn off but....maybe it is then too much to expect those who have pursued being a amateur radio and endured all the authoritarian nature and hierarchy to share their knowledge. I want to be free and that means not being a ham to me.

I appreciate you sharing this information, as you do not have to. I can consider whether I want to spend some money on these items. They do not look like they will break the bank (I have a very basic needle RF field strength meter in my TEAM 1180P SWR/Power meter.) Though the practicalities of testing the antenna at height and making a scaled down model of a Gain Master and Solarcon MAX2000 seem like mission impossible for any average RF head.

Posted Image

I have respect for science and those who want to learn the technical aspects in depth. As always I am just trying to understand more outside the formal structure of being a radio ham.

I spotted this clamp on RF Ammeter, not too pricey....(Does this definitely read only common mode currents in your coax shield and not other RF currents when clamped to a coaxial feeder ?)

http://www.radioworld.co.uk/mfj-853_clamp-on_rf_current_meter

Posted Image

Edited by RadioDaze, Monday, 21. September 2015, 13:05.
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Northern Crusader
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26 Charlie Tango 1760

The MFJ clamp meter is definitely what you want. If you look at the description on the Radioworld page it says it measures RF current in antenna elements, ground wires and coax shield and it repeats that in the user manual.

The RF field strength meter you already have will suffice. Unless you're doing safety critical testing then there's no need to know how many mW/cm2 there is at a given point so you just need a meter with a scale. We're looking for gain so if at point A we see the meter show 3 and when we go up a few feet we see it go up to 6 and then going up the same again drops down to three we can work out from that that there's a lobe with 3dB gain. If you keep the distance from the vertical antenna uniform then you can plot points on graph paper and come up with a diagram of the elevation pattern of the antenna. Similar thing for doing the azimuth pattern of a beam except you'd walk round the beam or rotate it. Actually with a beam its a bit easier to get the azimuth pattern as you just set up or find a beacon, rotate the antenna and note the S meter readings.

Its a shame you have a view of amateur radio as being authoritarian, its not one that had ever entered my mind although I can see why someone could think it was depending on their beliefs. I guess its a case of weighing up if the benefits of the license are worth it.

I don't really know about the construction of the Gainmaster but the Solarcon iMax 2000 is just a .64 wavelength long bit of wire with a matching section on the bottom to present 50 Ohms so is fairly easy to replicate.

Have you played with antenna modelling software like EZNEC or others? Antenna theory is well founded and well understood having had well over a century of research so antenna modelling software is quite accurate. I modelled my inverted L and experimented with different combinations of horizontal length for a fixed height and vertical section. Modelling it for 20m showed that at one length the azimuth pattern was apple shaped, adding another 6ft changed it to a X pattern with the nulls being around -30dB. Because the antenna ran north/south it was easy to test and adding on the 6ft to the original pattern dropped signals from Europe through the floor proving the existence of the nulls and the strong signals from North and South America proving the lobes. Modelling your antenna and therefore learning how it works and where its strengths and weaknesses are can save lots of wasted time trying to make contacts in areas the antenna performs poorly.
26CT1760 / M0GVZ
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RadioDaze
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Thanks. That field strength measurement technique would actually be really useful.. I just cannot for the life of me know how I would get to where my antenna typically is to measure it. Even if it was as low as a gate.

I guess I just cannot get my head around being a ham and a :pirate3: ? (even though I would guess that is about 75pct or more of people on the radio as :pirate3: ) Seems plenty do their foundation so they can point and get their DX score up and then go....right "?00 Watts up that beam goes." Seems a bit ar*e about elbow to me, given the test is about as difficult as single number maths and doing your ABC.

It's a choice that each can freely make.




Edited by RadioDaze, Monday, 21. September 2015, 16:54.
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Meissen
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Well I must say, I'm no dummy, but I found the amateur licence bloody hard.
I work in construction and had no prior electrical or radio knowledge. It was hardly ABC for me.
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Northern Crusader
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26 Charlie Tango 1760

RadioDaze
Monday, 21. September 2015, 16:40
I guess I just cannot get my head around being a ham and a :pirate3: ? (even though I would guess that is about 75pct or more of people on the radio as :pirate3: ) Seems plenty do their foundation so they can point and get their DX score up and then go....right "?00 Watts up that beam goes." Seems a bit ar*e about elbow to me, given the test is about as difficult as single number maths and doing your ABC.





The people at my amateur radio club are more interested in building and tinkering than transmitting. When we do field day we get a dozen people volunteering to put the station up but we struggle to get four operators. Our club chairman is rarely on the air DXing but rather spends a lot of his time designing stuff for amateur radio TV. Other than the club nets on a Monday and Friday I don't think I've ever seen/heard our treasurer on the air.

In regards to the power, go on Youtube and look for G7DIE. He spends the vast majority of his time operating QRP and regularly works Australia on a few watts. I got into QRP once, my record being 7500 miles with a watt. I do admit I did have an amp once. Owned it for a full three weeks, made 6 QSOs and sold it because it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

We have frequency allocations all the way from 136kHz right up to 250GHz so there's a lot to do. How about working satellites or doing moon bounce or on ultra low frequencies sending signals through the earth?

You say you can't get your head round being a ham and a pirate. Quite a few still are on 555 but you may find like I did that having so much space you spend less and less time there and literally end up just using UKFM to talk to local mates.

I suspect you've already got the equipment to get on some of the bands, why not take the test and have a go? At least when 11m is closed you'll have plenty bands elsewhere to go and operate. You can self study and then just take the test at a club and I doubt OFCOM will suddenly turn up and start beating down your door ;)
Edited by Northern Crusader, Monday, 21. September 2015, 20:38.
26CT1760 / M0GVZ
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RadioDaze
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Northern Crusader
Monday, 21. September 2015, 20:34
RadioDaze
Monday, 21. September 2015, 16:40
I guess I just cannot get my head around being a ham and a :pirate3: ? (even though I would guess that is about 75pct or more of people on the radio as :pirate3: ) Seems plenty do their foundation so they can point and get their DX score up and then go....right "?00 Watts up that beam goes." Seems a bit ar*e about elbow to me, given the test is about as difficult as single number maths and doing your ABC.





The people at my amateur radio club are more interested in building and tinkering than transmitting. When we do field day we get a dozen people volunteering to put the station up but we struggle to get four operators. Our club chairman is rarely on the air DXing but rather spends a lot of his time designing stuff for amateur radio TV. Other than the club nets on a Monday and Friday I don't think I've ever seen/heard our treasurer on the air.

In regards to the power, go on Youtube and look for G7DIE. He spends the vast majority of his time operating QRP and regularly works Australia on a few watts. I got into QRP once, my record being 7500 miles with a watt. I do admit I did have an amp once. Owned it for a full three weeks, made 6 QSOs and sold it because it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

We have frequency allocations all the way from 136kHz right up to 250GHz so there's a lot to do. How about working satellites or doing moon bounce or on ultra low frequencies sending signals through the earth?

You say you can't get your head round being a ham and a pirate. Quite a few still are on 555 but you may find like I did that having so much space you spend less and less time there and literally end up just using UKFM to talk to local mates.

I suspect you've already got the equipment to get on some of the bands, why not take the test and have a go? At least when 11m is closed you'll have plenty bands elsewhere to go and operate. You can self study and then just take the test at a club and I doubt OFCOM will suddenly turn up and start beating down your door ;)
Shooting fish in a barrel, that sounds spot on. I will think about it when 11m dies, if I still have an interest, otherwise I will be back in 2021-22.
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26PS001
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26 Charlie Tango 1523

Geoff I was like you, wasnt that bothered about being a ham, but I do enjoy it when the skip is flat on 11 metres. My favourite band is 40metres because I can make lots of local UK contacts with ease on very low power but mainly done it for night time dx work from the taxi and made some great contacts over the years.

I havent used the ham bands for along time but just since I got that wire up Im back into it again although when the 11 metres starts up again thats where you will find me. :pirate2:

Never say never bud, have a try or listen in and see what you think. I know your well into the antenna side of things and thats the part Im enjoying too. Lots of other stuff I want to play around with and that licence allows me to do just that.
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