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lightning arrester's
Topic Started: Thursday, 10. September 2015, 08:11 (1,282 Views)
The DB
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26SP001
 
I go with experience on this one, 10 sets, 9 disconnected and fine 1 connected at all times and ruined that tells a story.

Careful with this, it is one of many stories, and not all of the stories agrees with this. I have personally witnessed the results of many strikes over the years, with both CB and Ham Radio antennas. I have seen a strike 30 meters from an aluminum antenna vaporize the antenna, it doesn't take a direct hit to do that. I've also seen direct hits on antennas where the equipment that was hooked up to it survived, and is still functioning today.

26SP001
 
But again going back to my link

Have you bothered to watch the two videos I posted in response to your link? The data in your link is wrong on a fundamental level, if you rely on it it will come back to haunt you.

26SP001
 
Its all ifs and buts so you cant really point the finger we all dont know for sure what is happening.

There are those who work with lightening protection on a day in and day out basis, and lightening has been studied for over a century now. To say we don't know what is happening isn't correct. Further, when it comes to radio and lightening protection, it is well documented.

26SP001
 
Ive been reading tonight about when lightning comes down towards earth their is a second phase, the charge actually comes back up from the ground, again if the antenna is already earthed could this could make it easier and stronger to do this or am I wrong here, it could act like a double strike and looks more fierce than the initial strike down

Yes, the second "strike" is the stronger of the two, and it always happens. Actually, there ore often additional strikes after this one as well, although they are not as strong. That being said, the source of this strike is always the earth, weather the antenna is properly grounded or not. One thing to remember is the lightning is already going through kilometers of atmosphere as it is, do you really think that a few meters or less of separation from an earth will stop the strike from happening? If the antenna is properly grounded, you can at least control where that energy comes from (at least most of it).

Here is a video that shows the power of lightening and what it did to an antenna a ham shack, neither of which was attached to the coax when it happened according to the perdon who made the video.
Video




The DB
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Kaos
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13 Charlie Tango 013

26PS001
Thursday, 10. September 2015, 20:29
Kaos
Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:53
Well well well, out of 10 masts we get a direct strike on the mast that still has its coax attached.........with earths connected and arresters in line RIP Band 3 set. Fried to death. I still wonder what would have happened to the other radios if they were connected as the masts were in a close(ish) proximity. Would the static and high amount of volts caused any other damage?


So this is interesting maybe that link I supplied and the guy that wrote the piece might be right.

Tims antenna system had earths and arresters in line yet the radio was destroyed but all the others that had the coax disconnected were perfectly fine.

I go with experience on this one, 10 sets, 9 disconnected and fine 1 connected at all times and ruined that tells a story.

So Tim what do you think about the earthing system then, do you think it helps are not. Do you earth your home radio equipment/antennas.

No Daz, the coax goes out the window. All down to personal preference and experience.

I see a few other posts have come up all worthy of a read but I do notice no hard evidence just alot of "coulds" and assumptions.

I can assure you George, may I call you George, I have been responsible for more lives than you will ever know. I have also saved more than you have had constructive non threatening posts.

I am still waiting for evidence and not "coulds" on a coax, like mine, hanging out a window. Would you like the specifications again?

What experience do you have George. You seem to be a Wiki warrior these days? Again please do tell so we can take this discussion further.

13CT013 Tim aus Germany

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Scruff
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26 Charlie Tango 839

To answer 26ps001

I had a static burst here in 1992 my setup was in a cupboard under the stair so disconnecting the antenna was not an option so I did what I thought was the next best think and unplugged the psu from the wall.

It was a big mistake as the static built up and arced across the cupboard from the plug of the psu to the plug socket and took out every appliance in my house including the meter, where the coax was going through the loft the insulation was blown from the lighting circuits that it layed on.
This was not even a direct strike just a static build up.

The house 2 doors down lost all of his appliances as well (in case people are wondering why 2 doors and not 3 doors away I have a 3 phase supply).

I have everything earthed and after my experience with static I will not touch my antenna feeds just before a storm to disconnect them as I have no wish to die from static that has already built up. I turn the plug off at the wall and let the earth system deal with the static.

I just hope that I never get a direct strike.
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RadioDaze
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Being a mobile operator, using lead acid batteries, I have on occasion contemplated dying in an explosive acid bath. Not the nicest way to go. Maybe that big metal gate that I hope goes into the ground is a better mount for my antennas than I first thought. (posts likely go into concrete so it might not be earthed as well as you might think)

Any specific thoughts on earthing for mobile stations using a base antenna given ground rods are not an option. I usually just keep an eye on live lightening strikes online and use common sense. If hear any thing at a distance I will just down the lot as fast as I possible can. (rightly or wrongly)

If I have it guyed that takes time to sort out. Maybe I should carry scissors so I can cut them immediately. Paracord guys cost nothing really.

Maybe walking up the road would be a better idea till the storm passes ?
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13CT025
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Kaos
Friday, 11. September 2015, 04:30
I see a few other posts have come up all worthy of a read but I do notice no hard evidence just alot of "coulds" and assumptions.

The "hard evidence" can be easily seen everywhere you look - if you only care to do that. Countless homes, industrial buildings, hospitals etc. etc. have easily visible lightning protection and grounding.


Kaos
 
I can assure you George, may I call you George, I have been responsible for more lives than you will ever know. I have also saved more than you have had constructive non threatening posts.

Please cut out playing smart.

Ok, so you are Superman. But this is not the point. The point is that you are dealing out advice which clearly conflicts with numerous laws, regulations, electrical codes of best practice and with common sense, and which severely endangers the property, the health and the life of our members and forum visitors.

By doing so, you also endanger the forum staff with subsequent law suits.

I hope that I am speaking for the rest of staff when I say that this is not wanted here.


Kaos
 
I am still waiting for evidence and not "coulds" on a coax, like mine, hanging out a window. Would you like the specifications again?

I do not see it as my obligation to educate you. Please kindly do that yourself.


Kaos
 
What experience do you have George. You seem to be a Wiki warrior these days? Again please do tell so we can take this discussion further.

Again, you are missing the point. My experience is completely irrelevant in this matter. Instead, it is decisive what laws and regulations tell you.

Also, I believe that apart from the one or other Wikipedia article, I have pointed you to sufficiently many other places (see for instance those in our documents section).

Since you live in my country, for you the "DIN-VDE Bestimmungen" apply and give you advice how to correctly install antenna systems in compliance with German law. These definitely do not tell you to "hang your cable out of the window".

While the DIN-VDE Bestimmungen are "merely" a code of best practice and not a law in itself, complying to them ensures that you do not violate any of the numerous German laws and regulations. And these laws are not just a set of suggestions which you may freely decide to observe or not, to your heart's delight. They are laws.

You can find the (most extensive!) DIN-VDE Bestimmungen, the laws and regulations, and respective explanations on thousands of places in the internet, for example here (this is not a Wiki link):

http://www.baunetzwissen.de/standardartikel/Elektro_Rechtliche-Bestimmungen-fuer-die-Installation_153138.html

Since you are living in Germany for so many years now, one should think that the fact that also Germany has laws perhaps might have filtered down even to you.

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26PS001
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26 Charlie Tango 1523

Thanks for all the feedback guys Im enjoying this debate.

Im now thinking just maybe the best way to go after reading everything is have a connector in the coax outside your home, an easy to get too connector so no ladders are needed, a sort of break in the coax low down with a male and female connector, this way we can disconnect the antenna from the radio gear outside the house, have an earth rod in the ground and reconnect the disabled coax directly to the earth rod this way you are doing a bit of everything really, isolating your home and earthing the antenna direct to ground but all from outside nothing coming into the home and nothing coming into your gear.

I would like your feedback on this idea, it makes sense to me but again Im no expert on these matters, Im just trying to piece together this puzzle from feedback and reading. Mind its not to say I will do any of this, Ive never had an issue in all my years TBH but I will continue reading what everyone has to say as well as articles over the internet.

It always takes me ages to act, I put alot into everything that interests me. I suppose you can read and talk until your blue in the face but the best thing to do is study and then come to your own conclusions , let everyone know what it is you do then leave it upto them to decide their own actions.

Yes I have seen them videos George and have seen many more too, I have read everything that members have wrote as well as read other articles on line but for me this is just the start. It will take me a long time before I decide. I like to see actual experiments with the actual gear we are using such as cb radio and antennas instead of experiments with other apparatus.

I plan on getting intouch with the guy on one on them youtube videos, the one who had his antenna blown away by a strike, I have a few questions for him but I will also look for others and ask them a few questions too and this will help me decide.

I like the read from Tim as well, the story about 10 radios all disconnected but the one that was still connected is the one that was destroyed makes you think.

Thanks to everyone for the input but also sorry Charlie as I feel I have hijacked your thread a little lol. I hope your getting some of the answers you were seeking mate.
Edited by 26PS001, Friday, 11. September 2015, 13:26.
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Kaos
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13 Charlie Tango 013

I have just been reading through the links in this thread and indeed other peoples posts.

Imagine my surprise when I was directed to videos of complete houses being ruined by a lighting strike on an electrical sub stn 3 kilometres away. There are other distances available but the 3 kilometre one was here in Germany. Now with all this earthing and grounding and DIN, DIN ISO and DIN NORMS why did this happen? Did the fitters not install the corrects counter measure to the specific DIN. One would assume (bad thing to assume I know) but someone (Company) who provides a service that deals with fatal amounts of electricity can let this happen. I would also reckon that these installations are checked Bi-Annually. They do what they have to do by law, even if it costs an arm and a leg.

Please do not liken me to Superman, I wear my underwear under my trousers. Superman is a comic figure invented by DC Comics, but thanks for the likeness.

Since I live in your country.......its not yours. I hope I speak for the rest of the forum that no country, unless ran by a dictator on the same par as North Korea, is owned by no person.

Let me ask you a question if I my please....and let me give my views on it.....

"Did you take Lessons on how to drive when you where of age or did you just jump in the car and go straight to the test centre"? This may look irrelevant but its very relevant. One would normally answer I took lessons on how to drive, but that assumes that after your test you are the perfect driver.

I disagree, you are taking lessons on how to pass your test. The test is governed by the country you live in. Only after passing your test your will you experience new driving skills like a tyre blow out at 70mph on a motorway? Did they teach you that in your test? Mine neither. You have to experience it in order to learn how to deal with it. Not all emergency stops are on the same type of road surface.

MY POINT is this, I have seen it and experienced it in the past. Have seen what it does to protection in place and have seen the end cost. I managed to save 95%(ish I cant remember the proper amount) of radios (See Bosnia post) because I SIMPLY unhooked the radios from their coax's and placed them outside.

Why would one be playing smart, I could of course cut it out but then I would succumb to being sarcastic and lowering the tone of the post. That's has been done already with the 3rd post on this subject.

Keeping on topic......I place mine out the window as its what I have done in the past and its served me well.



13CT013 Tim aus Germany

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26PS001
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26 Charlie Tango 1523

Looking at more videos, the antennas in this video must be earthed but when you watch the video again its a minus in my books to earthing.

You can see the ground get hit by lightning but then you can see this lightning come back up an antenna that was not the nearest antenna to the strike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8RdrZkW_c

This tells me again that earthing may not be the best policy. Can you imagine this antenna connected to you home and is earthed, then lightning strikes your garden lawn, great it didnt hit the antenna but because your antenna is earthed it travels underground and comes back up you antenna which is connected to your equipment in your home, you are giving a path directly into your house because its all connected.

Going back again to David - K3DAV article he has some good points that may be worth taking notice of http://www.k3dav.com/antlightningprotectors.htm
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