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| Tweet Topic Started: Thursday, 10. September 2015, 08:11 (1,284 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 16:46 Post #21 |
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OK thanks for the links & advice and i shall do some lengthy reading and arrive at my own conclusion as to invest in a AR or not, Also something else i was concidering was a "Lightning Conductor" ,for when the 4.e.b is erected next month. You can never predict where lighting is going to strike next. (* If i know there is going to be a lighting storm in my local area as a percaution i disconnect the antenna's from the radio & or ATU's) Mental note to self~: use the search function next time. |
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| Kaos | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 16:57 Post #22 |
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13 Charlie Tango 013
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Jumped on this post here with good intentions of explaining my history with radios and lighting but I am going to quote this post instead and highlight the 3rd paragraph starting with........ "Unfortunately Dave (Lagerland) is absolutely clueless about lightning protection, he has not the faintest idea how lightning arresters work and how well devices can be protected with them" Can one assume that the poster of this post also has no Idea of lighting and lighting arrestors as it's just links to other sites. Wikipedia is editable by any man and his dog and even Colin the Head had a page, so therefore Wikipedia holds no value.....IN MY EYES. I would URGE all those to read up on this subject on a reputable website with a BSE kitemark accredited company and that they operate from the latest IEE regulations. I completed Edition 17. I am no where near current but I have knowledge. This is of course if you are in the UK. There are other websites in other languages which follow other regulations. Again I would urge anyone to "throw" or indeed place your Co-Ax out the window and take the precautions, if needed, to waterproof the connector that's attached. This is the only sure fire way of your radios staying usable. If your AE gets a hit, it will fry as will the Co-Ax but that's the danger(?) of the hobby. If required, I am happy to explain what I have seen and experienced with this. Now I am going in the corner to speak sternly with myself as I said I would never get caught up in this petty cr@p. BTW I am still waiting for the slander accusing me of selling dodgy kit. PM will do if you are embarrassed to do it in public. Good day Sirs! Edited by Kaos, Thursday, 10. September 2015, 17:01.
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13CT013 Tim aus Germany So Mote it be | |
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| Nik Gnashers | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 16:57 Post #23 |
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26 Charlie Tango 573
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I am not going to comment on any arguments so far in this thread. I would like to state however, that I completely agree with Steve, and having only just seen this thread as I have only just got in from work, I want to make the following clear. From this post on, I would like to only see HELP posted for the original question (from Charlie Chan). Please, you have all had you opinions on each other now, and responded to any accusations, so lets leave that done & dusted, and get on with helping out the original question, like we know Charlie Tango members can do in a helpful and friendly way. |
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M6GFT ::: QRZ Page- http://www.qrz.com/db/M6GFT [imgw=150]http://i.imgur.com/RJjZCOw.jpg[/imgw] All CT members are expected to use good operating procedure, good manners, and be friendly...Please do not chat on any calling frequencies, or use bad language on air, thank you it is appreciated. | |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 18:16 Post #24 |
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Quote tim kaos............ Again I would urge anyone to "throw" or indeed place your Co-Ax out the window and take the precautions, if needed, to waterproof the connector that's attached. This is the only sure fire way of your radios staying usable. If your AE gets a hit, it will fry as will the Co-Ax but that's the danger(?) of the hobby. Funny you should say that m8,thats how it all started last time when i said that.How ironic......................... |
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| 26PS001 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 18:37 Post #25 |
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26 Charlie Tango 1523
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Im no expert in this and dont pretend to be but since this post Ive done some reading myself, Im not sure what the best thing to do is as one long article by David - K3DAV actually says if you earth an antenna then you are actually turning it into a lightning rod, you could attract lightning to your antenna, their is alot more involved and a for and against for earthing your antenna but also in the article David mentions that a lightning and surge protectors wont protect your equipment This is a quote, just part of the article............ When you ground your antenna, the antenna becomes a lightning rod that actually attracts lightning. An antenna that is NOT grounded is far less likely to be hit by lightning. Many farms in open flat areas, and tall city buildings have lightning rods on their roofs. It is nothing but a metal rod sticking up in the air. A heavy wire is attached to the rod, and goes down to the earth ground. The point behind this is to give the lightning a good solid path to the sky or ground so that the rest of the building and property does not become the target of a lightning hit. Grounding your antenna does exactly the same thing. The metal antenna is sticking up in the air, and the shield side of your coax connects to the antenna, and runs into your home to the radio. If you put a ground connection outside in the coax line to an earth ground, you have turned your antenna into a lightning rod. This all makes sense to me. Read the full article here guys its very good and simplifies things http://www.k3dav.com/antlightningprotectors.htm This should be a great discussion, a debate, its all very interesting keep it clean guys and lets get to the bottom of the question this article has got me hooked on this subject, Ive never earthed my equipment in all the years Ive been an operator and touch wood never have any problems, not saying it wont happen as we can never predict where lightning will strike but after this read I dont know which way to go. I would be very interested in chatting to someone that has had an antenna strike, would be interesting to see if they did have their gear earthed. Let me know what you guys think after reading it. |
Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14 Mark (252) thecobraman tribute youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-jDebaO5BGsAjdy3pNiG7Q | |
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| The DB | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 18:37 Post #26 |
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I disagree with the throw the coax out the window idea that has been mentioned. Its one of those things that sounds good, but in actual use has its own issues. A proper lightening protection setup will give you every benefit of doing this, and more, while being less of a hassle every time you think it might storm. Please research this topic before settling on this idea. The DB |
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| 26PS001 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 18:48 Post #27 |
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26 Charlie Tango 1523
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Steve please don't stop there, you say throwing the coax out of the window it can have its own issues please let me know what these are, it will save me lots of time looking it up lol. I know by throwing coax out the window that if your antenna is struck by lightning it will travel down the coax and find its own way to ground by jumping so could hit something else. Im hooked on this now lol |
Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14 Mark (252) thecobraman tribute youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-jDebaO5BGsAjdy3pNiG7Q | |
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| 13CT025 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 18:56 Post #28 |
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I will not comment on the proposed brawl, but I do have a final comment on the suggested "reprimanding" and on the advice to "simply hang your coax out of the window during a thunder storm". If somebody gives you the advice not to use a parachute when jumping out of an airplane at high altitude because "you would die anyway should the plane crash, so parachutes are useless", then that shows complete ignorance of the function of a parachute and the physics involved with gravity and air friction. This holds even if the advice is based on the previous observation of a malfunctioning parachute. The same goes for the advice given in Dave's (Lagerland's) and Tim's (Kaos') posts, since it disagrees not only with the advice given by Wikipedia, but also contravenes countless governmental laws and regulations, common sense, and best practice in electrical engineering in general. Of course, in order to realize this, one needs at least a minimum of own knowledge. However, during the time since our last argument about lightning protection (way over a year ago), you, Dave and Tim have had enough time to learn about the regulations in your country, and about the severe dangers involved with lightning strikes. Since Dave (and also Tim/Kaos) still keep giving advice which can easily lead to the loss of property, serious injury and death, I must wonder whether they aren't in fact deliberately trying to harm the staff of this forum, and/or to harm or to kill others. Here in my country, a judge would likely see the latter as "versuchter Totschlag" ("attempted manslaughter"). I am not acquainted with British criminal law, but I believe it's this: Wiki: Attempted murder For the records: I have now clearly pointed this out. Should anybody here continue to give advice like that given by Lagerland and Kaos, then from here on, the juridical term will carry the addendum "premeditated". |
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| The DB | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:01 Post #29 |
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While being a common misconception about lightening rods, this article is in fact wrong. Here are links to two videos that talk about this and actually runs an experiment using a van de graaff generator that shows this data to be incorrect. Video 1 Video 2 The DB |
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| 26PS001 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:08 Post #30 |
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26 Charlie Tango 1523
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Hi George, I understand that earthing a property has massive advantages for protecting a home against lightning strikes but after reading that article I posted Im not so sure earthing the antenna is the best way forward, maybe having a separate lightning rod on top of the home earthed/grounded by ground spike would be better way to go, it seems to make more sense now. |
Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14 Mark (252) thecobraman tribute youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-jDebaO5BGsAjdy3pNiG7Q | |
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| Sam WD40 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:20 Post #31 |
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26 Charlie Tango 747
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As for lightning arresters not worth the money for cheep ones you need to spend good money on rechargeable versions and they ain't cheep |
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[marq=Left]STOP READING MY CRAP GO GET SOME DX DONE ![/marq] M0SRW 26-CT-747 IF YA NEIGHBOURS STILL TALK TO YOU GET A BIGGER ANTENNA ! Failure is not an option! BUT smashing it with a BIG hammer is ![]() | |
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| Smokey Jay | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:28 Post #32 |
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Unfortunately, whilst the idea is sound, I do not think the Lightning would know which of the two pointy things it had to strike. |
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| 26PS001 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:34 Post #33 |
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26 Charlie Tango 1523
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I was thinking that myself but then I went back to the post I made with the link attached, according to that link (not saying its correct) if its earthed it will act as a lightning rod so if the antenna is not earthed it shouldn't attract lightning but then again The DB give a link to a youtube video which contradicts that lol. I guess we will never get to the bottom of this lol |
Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14 Mark (252) thecobraman tribute youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-jDebaO5BGsAjdy3pNiG7Q | |
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| Sam WD40 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:39 Post #34 |
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26 Charlie Tango 747
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Take your pick there are a few available http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/17 But nothing can be better than takeing the antenna out and earthing the antenna down and totally disconnecting the radio from mains and takeaway from any earthing points |
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[marq=Left]STOP READING MY CRAP GO GET SOME DX DONE ![/marq] M0SRW 26-CT-747 IF YA NEIGHBOURS STILL TALK TO YOU GET A BIGGER ANTENNA ! Failure is not an option! BUT smashing it with a BIG hammer is ![]() | |
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| The DB | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:53 Post #35 |
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Potential water intrusion for one, which will also force a replacement of the coax. If you do something like this and the end is found sitting in water, it doesn't matter how good the water protection is, it will find its way in sooner or later. The fact that the system isn't properly grounded will also increase the chance of a strike, if you haven't already, look at the videos I linked in my previous post for information on that. This has further implications as a lightening strike acts very different from the low voltage DC that we are used to using. There is an electromagnetic pulse EMP that accompanies it. This EMP is strong enough to induce surges in metal objects, including electrical, phone, and cable wiring. such surges will cause problems of their own. A properly set up antenna will also minimize the chance of a strike in your immediate area, protecting your neighbors as well. There is no way to completely eliminate the chance of a lightening strike, but with a proper setup you can minimize it as much as possible. What is the proper setup for you? Well, that depends on things like which antenna are you using, where it is mounted, and other things such as how your house is grounded. There are some newer houses that use a "floating" ground system, which means the ground in the house may not actually be at ground potential. If you have such a system you really should talk to an electrician. I have multiple antennas up, and these antennas change over time. All of these antennas come in to a single grounding block, which has a direct link to the earth outside of the entry point via three ground rods in a V formation, these rods are completely buried. Depending on the antenna, (as I said above, not all antennas require such devices) some have lightening arrestors, and others don't. After they enter the house, they all go through antenna switches, and all of the antenna switches have a ground option. When the radios aren't in use I simply switch the antennas to the ground connection, which in and of itself is more beneficial than just throwing the coax outside of a window in a storm. It has been mentioned above that there are safety codes that should be followed. This is something that should be taken seriously as if you have a problem some cities/counties/whatever other governing body is in your area may cause you grief, to the point of making you take it down or install it properly, and they may even fine you as well. These organisations can be a pain to deal with, as would your homeowner's insurance company if they found you were in violation of a law after you had lightening strike your antenna. The DB |
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| Kaos | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:53 Post #36 |
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13 Charlie Tango 013
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Good replies coming through from folk in the know through research and folk just filling out posts with analogies Mount Vitorog 1907m ASL. Bosnia. AE field with about 10 masts. Ranging from UHF to HF........12m SCAM types and 8m RACEL. Tim and his little band of merry men see a storm on its way which contains thunder and lighting. We didn't guess it, we saw and heard it. Tim decides to cut all contact off with the outside world less one AE and radio (Ptarmigan) which needed to stay up at all costs. I had a backup, just in case. All coaxs go out the window and Tim and his little band of men go outside with brew in hand to watch storm. Well well well, out of 10 masts we get a direct strike on the mast that still has its coax attached.........with earths connected and arresters in line RIP Band 3 set. Fried to death. I still wonder what would have happened to the other radios if they were connected as the masts were in a close(ish) proximity. Would the static and high amount of volts caused any other damage? Tim and his band of merry men did this action for the rest of his time on the mountain and after 5 months we were not injured or anything, just a little slimmer round the waist. Now that was the Clansman/Ptarmigan era move onto BOWMAN era where it's not just a radio and tuner connected to a radio its alot more and alot more people, though with BOWMAN there is latency in the system that can be used but still fact remains the radio will sit at the end of the AE. Tim and his bigger band of merry men and vehicles are still alive and still roadworthy to this day as Tim and his bigger band of merry men did this when strikes (lighting) got close. Tim does this at home now, safe in the knowledge that if lighting strikes his AE and travels down his coax, which by this point is outside, all he will have is a mangled AE, burnt coax and a few scorched plants and therefore an angry wife!!! Tim does this as he has seen this in real life and has worked for him on HIS radio stuff at home. I would like to see evidence of a strike with coax out the window (RG213/U) from an Austrian supplier where that action puts my family in danger. This can also be read as other forum users in danger upon acting on this advice. Over to you.......and your experiences. |
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13CT013 Tim aus Germany So Mote it be | |
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| Roy | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 19:59 Post #37 |
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104 Charlie Tango 011
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Hi Sam / All, That"s exactly what I do Sam, I disconnect EVERYTHING.... even the telephone ! I do this because I had a "mild" lightning strike , apparently the main strike hit a nearby powerline here in my village, it happened a couple of years ago and it destroyed the transformer used in the bathroom mirror lights, it also destroyed the transformer in an electric alarm clock in the bedroom. But most serious damage was caused to an electric socket that supplied my freezer in the garage. |
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Roy 104DA101 & 104ET001 + 104CT011 Your Radio Friend in Corsica Island Website : My Webpage YouTube Channel : My Webpage
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| 13CT025 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 20:25 Post #38 |
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That's exactly the point. This is what can happen if you follow Lagerland's and Kaos' fatal advice:
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| 26PS001 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 20:29 Post #39 |
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26 Charlie Tango 1523
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So this is interesting maybe that link I supplied and the guy that wrote the piece might be right. Tims antenna system had earths and arresters in line yet the radio was destroyed but all the others that had the coax disconnected were perfectly fine. I go with experience on this one, 10 sets, 9 disconnected and fine 1 connected at all times and ruined that tells a story. So Tim what do you think about the earthing system then, do you think it helps are not. Do you earth your home radio equipment/antennas. |
Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14 Mark (252) thecobraman tribute youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-jDebaO5BGsAjdy3pNiG7Q | |
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| 26PS001 | Thursday, 10. September 2015, 20:40 Post #40 |
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26 Charlie Tango 1523
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But again going back to my link, that guy says its more likely to get lightning strike your antenna if it is grounded so the argument could be that because you have given an earth link directly to your antenna you have made a huge lightning rod and attracted the lightning. Its all ifs and buts so you cant really point the finger we all dont know for sure what is happening. Ive been reading tonight about when lightning comes down towards earth their is a second phase, the charge actually comes back up from the ground, again if the antenna is already earthed could this could make it easier and stronger to do this or am I wrong here, it could act like a double strike and looks more fierce than the initial strike down http://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/580/why-does-lightning-strike-from-the-ground-up |
Charlie Tango member 26CT1523 since 12/11/14 Mark (252) thecobraman tribute youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-jDebaO5BGsAjdy3pNiG7Q | |
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