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5 vertical antenna, monopole shoot out (date to be announced) All welcome : )
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. September 2015, 16:27 (1,798 Views)
RadioDaze
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Hi all, on a day that will be announced in the near future (proposed and provisional optional dates to be decided upon : (17th or 18th October 2015) I want to do a 5 antenna blind test. Being able to put up and take down vertical antennas within about 5-10mins of each other in one and the same position is one advantage of being a mobile static base station.

The antennas will be:

Sirio High Power 4000
Coaxial home brew - T2LT
Sirio Gain Master
Solarcon IMAX 2000
1/2 wave Venom Silver Rod

I have 2 mount methods which will not be announced at the time of testing:

Pole mount 4 or 5 poles (depending on the days wind conditions)

Gate mount 0.7M from ground


With exception of Sirio 4000 which will be magmount roof mounted.

QTH approx hill top, South East England, so should get out in theory 20-40 miles.

Same coax will be used to feed all antennas with exception of Sirio HP 4000

Each antenna will be on it's own without any other antenna close by. (antennas not being tested will be laid on ground)

Antennas announced as A,B,C,D,E and not announced by name. (Blind test)

FM seems to be the best mode to read signals on a meter and a frequency will be announced nearer the date with some notice. Of course we cannot know who will and will not be available at the time. (thus the reason for advance notice to get as many participants as possible) Radio power will be set to 4 watts output.

I will prepare all antennas with the lowest SWR I can obtain for the frequency on the day, in advance. To allow for this I will estimate the test will start around 2pm in the afternoon.

I give loads of notice because this way more people can join in as they spot the thread and just post their results on this thread. You can copy and paste this in when the time comes, post shoot out.

I think it will be fun for all involved and informative as well, everyone is of course welcome to earwig and note results on a bit of paper and pop results into the thread. You can note your signal reading as closely as you can manage, any extra information is fine such as... e.g. "S4 + 1 needle or S7 - 1 needles width" to provide some sub S point reading.

I express my wishes : I would very much like it if Largerland, Nubster, Cozzmik, AndyDX, Farmer Richard, CJ/CT331, Mark From Essex, Andy CT758, Dennis 525 would be willing participants.

THIS SHOOT OUT IS DEFINITELY NOT LIMITED TO THESE MENTIONED STATIONS ! EVERYONE WHO READS THIS IS WELCOME TO JOIN IN.


Of course we cannot know if you will be available on the day so I mentioned quite a few names there if you have time free and want to join in. On the day if anyone would like to be a "Known keyer" for an RX report my end on the day on each of the antennas that would be great.

You just have to key up with identical power output for me to read your incoming signal on each antenna as best as I can myself to be published on the results. We could keep this down to 3 people I think to keep waiting time to a minimum.

You can copy and paste this into a post on this thread in the following results format:

(If you wish or need you can add any extra information fine such as... e.g. "S4 + 1 needle or S7 - 1 needles width" to provide some sub S point reading)

Mount A

A S-
B S-
C S-
D S-
E S-

Mount B

A S-
B S-
C S-
D S-
E S-

Approx RX QTH :






Edited by Nik Gnashers, Tuesday, 15. September 2015, 19:24.
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26PS001
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26 Charlie Tango 1523

I really look forward to the outcome of this, well done for setting this up, I like the way you are trying the homebrew T2LT in with it, yes do the tests but dont mention what antenna you are using so its blind is a brilliant idea.

Cant wait his will defo put things right about these manufactured antennas, are they worth the extra money or not, I have to say Ive used wire dipoles and found they work just as good as my antron, I dont use the antron any more just wire upto now but the results of this could change what I use in the future.
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RadioDaze
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It won't and cannot be definitive but at least I can get them in the sky in fairly free space (and bolted up to the gate) without obstructions and other antennas spoiling the characteristics of each antenna. Of course one antenna might work better at another QTH but I think at the very least it will be fun and mildly informative.

Variables can be minimized.

Edited by Nik Gnashers, Saturday, 5. September 2015, 18:15.
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Bean
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I.ll have a listen Geoff if time allows when you post up the date, but doubt it will be possible on Fm.
Kevin
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"Speech is civilization itself. The word, even the most contradictory word, preserves contact. It is silence which isolates."
Thomas Mann (1875-1955)
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RadioDaze
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Thanks Kevin you never know ? Appreciate the interest anyway.
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Nubster
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26 Charlie Tango 050

I will give it a go Geoff :thumb:

Life is too short, so ave a laugh now n then never know you might like it
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Cozzmik
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26 Charlie Tango 465

Id be happy to help with this experiment and will be static mobile at my qth but at 69m asl i do ok and look forward to the outcome... :thumb:


Your going to be knackered at the end of the day ;)








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RadioDaze
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That's the spirit : )

I have thought of 1 problem already... I know the GM SWR's up (surprisingly :doh2: ) 1.3:1 on the gate bolted directly... but I need to make the coax antenna and I do not really know if that will react badly to the gate.

So I will make one ASAP and stick it on a fish rod and see if it SWR's up ok. I will have to get a double female connector to put it on the same 10M of RG213 that all the others will be on.

I have never had any issue with these antennas (IMAX still in the box though) related to common mode currents/RF feedback etc. so I will use a coax length with no choke in it as that is what I stick in the GM and Silver Rod with no issues thus far.

With this test I will have no idea what the results are either, except for RX signals from the "Known keyers"

Undoubtedly it will be 2 days of peeing down with rain that I have selected. :ermm: Oh well have to wait and see.
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Nik Gnashers
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26 Charlie Tango 573

Looking forward to this Geoff, should be interesting !
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RadioDaze
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Thanks Nik I look forwards as well. Mainly for the fun of it but it will also help me and others find out if ground plane antennas can blow the GM away for my lazy days setups with a G clamp to the gate.

I have an inkling (theory dictates at least) the GM might be a great cloud warmer on the gate despite the low SWR reading along with the T2LT. Both essentially being balanced dipole variants. We shall have to see.

I hope this is not too presumptuous:

The beauty of this is I think that we could also say that the IMAX would compare similarly to most ali 5/8th waves fairly well and the Silver Rod 1/2 wave compare fairly well to the Antron99. Of course there is slight differences but similarities too (more similarities than differences, ok one is fibre glass outer's and one ali but it's all metal in the end!). Just coil loaded 5/8th and 1/2 waves. (give or take a coil and capacitor/bit of coax for ease of tuning on the fibre glass antennas)
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Turbo
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26 Charlie Tango 491

Sounds like a good experiment Geoff, if you need an additional keyer let me know ime happy to oblige, steve..CT491
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RadioDaze
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Sure thanks Turbo...I have no idea who really anyone who fancies. Of course it is a long way off. I was thinking 26/27th Sept but there is some UK based activation on so it would be bad timing) No one need to commit to that until closer the time... and happy for stand ins anyway if someone cannot do it last minute. No personal bias really. Just a few people up for it. Would be great if the spanned compass points but no need to go too complicated..

Anyone up for it on the day, no probs but keep it to 3 to save some time.

I am guessing upping and downing 10 times (2 mounts x 5 antennas) is going to take about 2 hours. I better have some Red Bull with me. :~

I will keep it nice and to the point no long QSOing or waffling from me... then all you guys can chat between yourselves while I am getting antennas up and down.


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Nubster
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26 Charlie Tango 050

Geoff I just had a thought , consider this, most if not all you asked have been pirates stations ;) for years and have used those type of frequency's , so as this is a experiment I think you should do it on the legal bands IE: the Mid/Cept/Euro (whatever they call it now) block on AM/FM/SSB and also UK40FM so that you get proper readings as if people are using totally a legal set up, plus also you would get more who would join in the experiment who only have legal radios.



Life is too short, so ave a laugh now n then never know you might like it
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Bean
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I know where your coming from Martin and in some ways agree about the legal side of it but I was going to surgest using a low band frequency or one of the alpha channels :pirate3: to be away from qrm, just a different perspective I supose.
Kevin
CT261685@aol.com
TOTALLY PORTABLE

"Speech is civilization itself. The word, even the most contradictory word, preserves contact. It is silence which isolates."
Thomas Mann (1875-1955)
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Nubster
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26 Charlie Tango 050

The only reason I suggested it Kev was that, many that have recently join the forum who have just come it to CB will have gone and brought legal radios and have only used the legal frequency's , so I thought as its a experiment they could be included plus as I said we old pirates that use the pirate frequencys sort of know our limitations of how far we get out and receive signals ;) and TBH as its a test/ experiment I think it should be done on legal areas really, plus also some may not have the alphas on there radios or even know what they are LOL and QRM is law unto its self mate we can get that anywhere

Life is too short, so ave a laugh now n then never know you might like it
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Andydx103
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RadioDaze
Saturday, 5. September 2015, 16:27








I express my wishes : I would very much like it if Largerland, Nubster, Cozzmik, AndyDX, Farmer Richard, CJ/CT331, Mark From Essex, Andy CT758, Dennis 525 would be willing participants.









Sorry i wont be able to take part in this experiment due to removing all my equipment.
Edited by Andydx103, Sunday, 6. September 2015, 09:38.








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RadioDaze
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Andydx103
Sunday, 6. September 2015, 09:31
RadioDaze
Saturday, 5. September 2015, 16:27








I express my wishes : I would very much like it if Largerland, Nubster, Cozzmik, AndyDX, Farmer Richard, CJ/CT331, Mark From Essex, Andy CT758, Dennis 525 would be willing participants.









Sorry i wont be able to take part in this experiment due to removing all my equipment.
No worries, that sounds like a pain in the proverbial.

I will have a think about where as in my naivety when I started back up I found Mid band is a bit of a QRM nightmare (It'll be Olga-bleed-over-tastic by October I bet) and the logistics of this are already potentially a bit slow in parts and QRM might just hack people off so they might not be bothered. Also distant stations might not hear a thing. Battling the QRM might be a bit of a mare and push it over the edge.

Open to further input and suggestion from those interested on that matter. We can nail that down closer the time once we have thunk it over properly.

Additional S meter info :

You can also embellish any S reports with info such as "Signal remained the same, slightly increased noise floor, or signal same lower noise floor" That would be handy on FM. You only add anything if you think it adds some relevance over and above the S meter reading.
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Henry HPSD
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19 Charlie Tango 249

If im allowed...

Please do use a RF choke on all the antennas.
In case of a halve wave vertical place it say 1 meter below the feed point
In all other cases ...directly underneath the antenna.

When i wrote this article:
http://cb-antennas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Sigma-IV-1.01-Jan-2015.pdf

It became more and more clear difference in antennas is often due to commen mode currents and antenna TOP (current) height.
What im trying to say...
Antennas like the Vector 4000 (and 5/8 waves) often outperform the 1/2 wave ...but not due to antenna gain.
Often its simply because the other one is higher and can "see" further.

Statement:
"The difference seen in signal strength for most who compare vertical 27 MHz antennas is not due to the additional gain of the "winner" but most likely do to different reasons causing the other not performing to its abbility."

Good luck !!! Keep us posted !!!! and Great work !!!
www.hpsd.nl www.CB-ANTENNAS.com

1 watt into a dipole will work DX !,
100 watt into a antenna which is only 1 percent as efficient as the dipole will work the same DX.
Keep that in mind when someone claims good results from a small antenna.
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Northern Crusader
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26 Charlie Tango 1760

What method of measuring the signals are you going to use? Please say field strength meter with its antenna base at the height of the base of the test antennas (or centre in the case of any vertical dipoles) and not someone with another CB a mile or two away saying antenna X is 5.1S points and antenna Y is 5.2 S points.

Edited by Northern Crusader, Monday, 7. September 2015, 10:21.
26CT1760 / M0GVZ
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Northern Crusader
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26 Charlie Tango 1760

26PS001
Saturday, 5. September 2015, 16:34
I have to say Ive used wire dipoles and found they work just as good as my antron, I dont use the antron any more just wire upto now but the results of this could change what I use in the future.
Horizontal dipoles outperform all vertical monopoles when they're placed at least half a wavelength above ground due to the benefits of ground reflection.

Any test is only as valid as the measurement techniques used. Sadly I fear this is going to be yet another completely unscientific test with a RX station at either a lower or higher height than the antennas with signals being multipath as they're reflected off all kinds of buildings and fractions of S points or needlewidths being mentioned as the differences so I would take the results with a pinch of salt if they're done using anything other than a field strength meter with its antenna base at the same height as the base of the test antennas within a few feet of the antenna.
26CT1760 / M0GVZ
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