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LPD Radio; 433.075 to 434.775Mhz
Topic Started: Sunday, 10. February 2013, 19:31 (3,514 Views)
Firetrap
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26CT100

Anyone experimented with LPD Radio? OK, the legal power output is just 10mw so nothing groundbreaking expected on my part but I must admit it does interest me.

The LPD frequencies are 433.075 to 434.775Mhz with 25Khz channel spacing.

There are 69 channels in total which are located within the 70cm amateur band but they can be used license free.

With it being in the 70cm band, how do licensed operators feel about 'joe public' using a section of that band? I ask because channels 1 to 14 are UK Amateur repeater outputs and channels 62 to 69 are UK Amateur repeater inputs. Does this cause issues?

I'll be giving it a go at some point from very high ground.

Cheers

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VoG
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It is a change that came about six years ago as part of EU Rationalisation, and Ofcom kept Mightly Quiet about it. Apparently, even RadCom failed to mention the changes.

There was a LONG discussion about this (about 7 pages, complete with the inevitable argument or two) on TM1 back in 2006. Mainly because the relevant Ofcom papers make very little sense (as usual) and are almost impossible to read unless you're a trained corporate Lawyer. There was a lot of discussion about whether Voice was/is really allowed and how that figured with the "Data" permissions and whether the voice element had to be digitised. The Ofcom document was also amended in September 2008 which seems to have changed the Power Limit for the first 40 channels from 10mW to 1mW.

So the current summary seems to be
Current LPD Summary
 
Voice communications are now legal subject to the following criteria:

  • Only "Type Approved" Radios, sold specifically for "LPD RADIOS USE", may be used.
  • The Ofcom document specifies a 10% Duty Cycle[1].
  • Power limits and frequencies are
    • LPD channels 1 (433.0750) to 39 (434.0250) at 1mW
    • LPD channels 40 (434.0500) to 69 (434.7750) at 10mW
The original legislature was intended to permit the use of ultra-short-range remote controllers: such garage door openers; remote switching/radio remote controllers; toy radio-control models; and cordless CCTV/Web cameras; etc. and was later amended to also allow Voice.

The Amateur reaction seems to be largely mixed. Those few who know about this seem to be mildly pizz'd off that Ofcom would "give away" a chunk of the allocation and express concern at the possiblility of 70cm Repeaters being compromised by legitimate users on the LPD Band... or MORE concerned at Band Compromise by illegitimate users.

Most appear to accept that one or ten milliwatts on UHF are not going to cause major issues. . . . . BUT . . . . Only a Brain-dead Deaf-and-Blind Fool-hermit, or a Government Department is dumb enough to believe that everyone is going to stick to the legal power limits or the legal frequencies for that matter - it doesnt happen on PMR[2] and it doesn't happen on CB[3] so are the same people who raise two-fingers to PMR and CB legislation suddenly going to have an attack of concience and abide by the rules for LPD?

Naaaah, not a chance :D

So, given the liklihood of 5w, 10w or 20w "LPD" users hitting the band, I can see there is the possibility for issues with Repeaters and I can foresee a few arguments between Amateurs on 70cm and LPD users who swear that they're only using the 1mW . . . . "Honest Guv". :) . . . . Some Nit-Pickin' Old-Skool Operator might overhear a LPD Conversation and berate the users for Not Giving Their Call-sign Regularly Enough, and find that he is actually in breach of his pwn licence by "engaging in conversation with unlicenced users on an amateur radio band". :doh:

HOWEVER, let us all remember that this legislation came into force six years ago, and it hasn't exactly caused the End of the Radio World As We Know It - so it is probably another Storm in a TeaCup.

But I would like to say:- IF people are going to have a play on this band, and IF people are thinking of exceeding the miniscule power limits, PLEASE look at the Repeater frequencies in your area before TXing, especially when TXing from high ground.
The locations of UK 70cm Repeaters can be found HERE

[1] Apparently the "10% Duty Cycle" applies to all PMR Type licence-free communication. Briefly, it means the radio is used for, "5% TX, 5% RX and 90% Standby in any hour" (according to Ofcom).
[2] Let's be honest - a LOT of people run unrestricted European PMRs at 2w, or Widebanded Chinese Handelds at 5w, or other unlicenced Amateur Equipment at even higher Power, and the "Eight UK Channels" became almost a joke.
[3] Ho Ho Ho. . . . "CB Radio is only permitted on 80 Frequencies and is limited to 4w FM in the UK". Yeah, like THAT is never broken.
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Firetrap
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26CT100

Looking at the repeater map, there is nothing within 60 miles of me. So, in theory, I should be OK.

Cherokee
 

Some Nit-Pickin' Old-Skool Operator might overhear a LPD Conversation and berate the users for Not Giving Their Call-sign Regularly Enough, and find that he is actually in breach of his pwn licence by "engaging in conversation with unlicenced users on an amateur radio band


That's what I was thinking. As you said, there will be some users who will use the imported 45w mobile rigs on LPD and indeed even 5w Baofeng radios so there IS actually a good chance of a few crossed words between LPD users and Hams, especially in well ham-populated areas and also around the repeaters.

Hopefully, those that do exceed the power limits will operate in a polite and respectful way. I'll be sticking to the power limit as I imagine Ofcom WOULD be interested in any report of misuse of the Ham bands and they would have to investigate, unlike CB where they don't seem to care much.

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Nubster
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26 Charlie Tango 050

Hi Lee & Steve I now also have one of the Baofeng UV5R and TBH have never heard anything on the LPD channels around my way but hillwalker (Doug CT594) who lives near me told me about PBR channels which there is ten of which go from 449.312 to 173.050 and there seems alot of life on there, I've heard that its frequencys that people/companys that pay for them but all can shear them who have paid but there is no way of telling who has paid and who aint so we hear loads of things on there ie: like anyone with a Baofeng having a chat ;) even our 70m /2m reapeters are pretty dead and I have a reapeter just 4 mile up the road from me

Life is too short, so ave a laugh now n then never know you might like it
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Miko
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Firetrap
Sunday, 10. February 2013, 19:31
Anyone experimented with LPD Radio? OK, the legal power output is just 10mw so nothing groundbreaking expected on my part but I must admit it does interest me.

The LPD frequencies are 433.075 to 434.775Mhz with 25Khz channel spacing.

There are 69 channels in total which are located within the 70cm amateur band but they can be used license free.

With it being in the 70cm band, how do licensed operators feel about 'joe public' using a section of that band? I ask because channels 1 to 14 are UK Amateur repeater outputs and channels 62 to 69 are UK Amateur repeater inputs. Does this cause issues?

I'll be giving it a go at some point from very high ground.

Cheers
Would have thought that the reverse is probably more likely, ie the guy with 30/40 watts tx on 70cms is going to open the odd garage door or activate my reclining armchair. Never yet heard of any interference from activity on lpd being heard on 70cms ham band..........Mick
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VoG
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Miko
Monday, 11. February 2013, 20:42
the guy with 30/40 watts tx on 70cms is going to open the odd garage door or activate my reclining armchair.
No way could I possibly resist THAT picture!!!


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Firetrap
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26CT100

hahahahahahah now THAT is awesome!

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Big Andy
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26 Charlie Tango 1060

Amateurs are only secondary users of this band, as are LPD. There's enough other available frequencies they can use. Nor should they be tempted to turn their power up to force the LPD user away, as it is against ham licence rules to interfere with another radio user. Again, all a storm in a tea cup anyway.
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M0WIT
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26 Charlie Tango 3210

Do LPD's include car door systems?

I was recently transmitting via the car and the car would not lock/unlock as a result. I suspect the system is in the 430 mHz band
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Big Andy
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26 Charlie Tango 1060

I believe some car systems are on the 433mhz frequencies.
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Big Andy
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26 Charlie Tango 1060

Strange that since I posted on is thread, some young lads working on LPD told me that some old amateur had a right go at them for using radios illegally. It has to be said , and re-iterated, that under the terms of our licence, we are not supposed to interfere with other radio users, especially on a frequency where we are the secondary users. It's not us who make the rules, nor the youngsters on LPD, but the powers that be. So if you're one who doesn't like it, write to Ofcom or something, but do not have a go on the bands, for one thing it portrays a very poor image of he hobby.
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M0WIT
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26 Charlie Tango 3210

Our amateur licence suggests that we should not speak to unlicenced persons.

So, to 'have a go' at someone working LPD (or to even speak with them) surely is a licence breach.
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Radio Pixie
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26 Charlie Tango 052

M6DFW
Sunday, 13. April 2014, 09:17
Our amateur licence suggests that we should not speak to unlicenced persons.

So, to 'have a go' at someone working LPD (or to even speak with them) surely is a licence breach.
This is what Ofcom says:

Quote:
 
We realise that some of the SRD channels align with the input frequencies of certain UK Amateur Radio Repeaters. We understand the frustration that this is causing some Amateur Repeater users. We are therefore working to address this problem in the longer term. In the meantime, however, we suggest that a short call to the SRD user informing them of the interference problem and a polite request for them to select an alternative channel might be the simplest solution.


Taken from: Click for LINK

73 from Dave the Pixie 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado :)

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M0WIT
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26 Charlie Tango 3210

Interesting stance from OFCOM there.

One must assume that by call, they mean on the frequency in question, as opposed to another method such as phone.

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Radio Pixie
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26 Charlie Tango 052

Making a short radio contact is what the document is suggesting. Seems like a good idea to me :)
73 from Dave the Pixie 26CT052 - G7OPC - CB & Ham Radioaficionado :)

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Big Andy
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26 Charlie Tango 1060

Omg I cannot believe the naivety of that ofcom statement! Having heard over the last few days the activities of amateurs on 40m in particular, this just will not happen. Courtesy on the airwaves seems to be cast aside, belligerence and sheer bloody mindedness rules the airwaves it seems. Equally, why can the LPD user not politely ask the amateur to move, after all, the LPDer has less power, less frequencies, and equal right to be there. As for the repeaters, it seems no one wants to use them, until they hear someone else using them, then it's "Oi!! Get off!"
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