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| HF antenna woes...grrrr!; Any recommendations? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sunday, 28. August 2011, 07:27 (4,193 Views) | |
| PlanetErnie | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 07:27 Post #1 |
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Morning peeps. How frustrating is radio??? (like you all don't know that already :D). Am missing the radio at home so I put the Prowhip on my old TK brackets that are still on the back of the garage last night and, as i'm typing this, am listening to an Aussie ragchew on 20m. Also heard KH6LC Hawaii contest station a little while ago, also on 20m. It is soooo making me want to put a proper antenna up again! So, this is my dilemma. I've been the G5RV route and wasn't totally impressed. Logistically, it was awkward for me to achieve the right setup. Am thinking of putting up a dedicated 20M wire antenna of some sort as this is my band of choice. Was really impressed with the simplicity of steve152's double bazooka antenna but would struggle with the centre feed, the same problem that I had with the G5. I'm not that keen on the vertical route as the pennies won't stretch that far plus the reports of noise are too common so wire will be the way to go. I've also thought about a Windom antenna. Being end fed makes this the ideal candidate but again, the price of a branded Windom antenna puts them out of my league. So guys and girls, this is my situation. 20m monoband wire, endfed, reasonably priced or maybe even homebrew. Must be an easy build though. Technically, I do struggle with the physics of antennas ![]() Cheers in advance, fellow anoraks ![]() Paul. |
| "if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly!!!" | |
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 08:39 Post #2 |
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Can you please post some info on the space you have available to stick up an antenna Its hard to visualise what would work without knowing space limitations. There is always a solution to a problem, especially on this site where there is a lot of exerience and willingness to help. cheers, adonis |
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| VoG | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 09:03 Post #3 |
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I do like the performance of the Windom but unfortunately they're not actually "end-fed". A Windom is an "off-centre-dipole" arrangement with the feed about one third of the way along.... But if you can find the room for one I think it might impress you. Sure, Radioworks Windoms are about £120, but you can get one that'll handle a hundred or two hundred watts for a lot less than that, say about £35. I run a CW40 and I really do like it. IF I could get someone here to do the physical work (poles, ladders and on the roof) I'd happilly replace it with an "CW 80 Special" or a "CW 160 Special". You do need a bit of height with these though, aq minimum of about thirty feet at the feed and it cannot be a 30' metal pole as the vertical radiator hangs down just there. As Adonis has said, it'd be a lot more useful if we know what space and limitations you have at your QTH. |
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 09:23 Post #4 |
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Antennas can be very frustrating indeed. I've got a great deal of information from a RSGB publication HF Antnnas for Everyone. Most of the information is in readable and understandable English (this is not always the case). Invest the £13 or so, it may help. I run a end-fed wire because of the same reasons you have. In all the pictures of center fed wires the 'Shack' is at the back of the house and down stairs (er, Kitchen). mine is at the front and upstairs, hence the end fed. You can buy a ready to go end-fed wire for about £35 from SRC. The bit I was not that confindent with is the Balun (assuming you have coax feed to the radio) so I brought one. Mine is not the SRC variant but its much the same (more expensive!). Works OK for me. Don't be fooled into thinking the wire needs to be straight to radiate a signal. It would be nice but if you can't due to lack of room then go with what you have and bend to fit. You WILL get a signal out. Good luck and don't panic. |
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| PlanetErnie | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 09:52 Post #5 |
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The dimensions of my garden are 100+ft long by 25ft wide with a fair few trees blocking the potential liftoff of any low lying antenna. When the G5 was up, I had one end held up at 25ft by a metal pole which was guyed and boy, did it look a eyesore:![]() As you can see from the next pic, at the house end, I only have 1 wall to mount a wire. Admittedly, this isn't really a problem because I can hang the long wire from the base of any potential antenna mast: ![]() ***This is an archive photo. My QTH is currently antenna-less*** Steve, I honestly thought the Windom was end fed. A certain amateur radio dealer virtually at the end of my road has, what I thought was, a Windom antenna set up. It's a long wire with a balun(?) right at the mounting bracket. May have to pop down there and enquire further. Bob, am really interested to know how you've improved your SRC antenna. When I passed my foundation, I used an SRC X65 for a few months but had real trouble tuning the thing. I tried everything - Westflex coax, grounding to a ground spike etc. but nothing really worked. This was when I was persuaded to try a full size G5 but again, more trouble ensued. |
| "if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly!!!" | |
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| VoG | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 10:27 Post #6 |
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Sounds like a Balun on an end-fed long-wire, as Bob described. Looking at your set-up you could get away with a CW80 Special. One end on the peak of the house roof, or a bit higher if possible, then a "sloper" down to the shed roof. With the vertical radiator and feed-point hanging straight down just behind the house. The CW80 Special has a short (10') radiator compared to many Windoms (most have a 22' radiator), so that would be fine for your place.
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 12:34 Post #7 |
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!00 feet and 25 feet across and you have lots of space to play with. As Maybach suggested though it all depends where you want the feed point located. Steve's idea of the CW looks very do-able because the feed point is not too far from the house. I also had the same problem when I lived in the UK with similar space issues and I used a RadioWorks CW which was about (I think about 130 - 140 ft long). As suggested if you need to dog-leg the shorter bit it does not affect performance too much and you have the added benefits of multiband capability. Performance on 20m was good although I found the vertical radiator of my Radioworks CW not too critical on its orientation i.e. slanted or vertical to the ground and suspect this is more to do with advertising hype. G5RVs and particularly end fed verticals are fairly 'touchy' antennas to tune for different reasons but the end fed long wire usually has very high end impedances which your tuner may or may not be able to handle. That said, the end fed longwire is cheap to build and if its the 'correct' length you should be able to tame the high end impedance, see link below: http://www.qsl.net/g3yrc/endfed%20wire.htm An alternative homebrew CW which also works well (but might not be the right length of wire for your needs) is one based on the Fritzel FD4 OCF dipole. Its a little bit longer than a traditional CW and it was made to this length so that the feed impedance at harmonics of the bands of interest (80 -10m) are approximately 300 ohm. The wire you can buy cheaply and you will also need a 1:6 balun which you can get fairly cheaply. This converts the characteristic impedance from 300 ohm to approx 50 ohm and apart from the top end of 80m, no tuner is needed. cheers, adonis |
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 13:56 Post #8 |
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Sorry for any confusion but my end fed wire is not one of the SRC products, just mentioned that off the top of my head as an example. Mine is a WiMo MTFT Magnetic Balun, made in Germany. The wire is approx 60ft in lengh. My garden is also about 100 ft all in so plenty of room to spare. The other end is held aloft by a fibreglass fishing pole. A (poor) pic to give you an idea: ![]() Please note the 'Ugly Balun' (RF Choke) on the wire and the SRC X80 vertical which I find to be utter rubbish! Soon to be replaced, I hope. The plastic box is just to offer some weather protection for my wire Balun. Mine will tune with no problems upto 20 mtrs. 15 mts and up its a bit more critical on the manual tuner. I have further problems on 12 and 10 mtrs with stray RF knocking out my PC keyboard! To be honest I spend most of my Amateur time on 40 mtrs anyway and work Europe with ease, Inter G when conditions alllow. Mid USA (outstanding conditions and the US station's antenna system) but it does work. I've often thought about extending my wire to 'fit' the space but to be honest as it stands I'm happy with its performance. I'm no great 'DX hunter' but it does OK. |
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| MadMark1 | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 14:52 Post #9 |
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163 Charlie Tango 020
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A really simple antenna that works well is the good old vertical, It can be made easily and very cheaply using a 1/2 wave cb vertical, Just remove the Matching coil in the base and wire the centre pin of the SO239 socket (PL socket) straight throught to the antenna. Ground mount it as close to ground level as you can ( within a foot or two ) run a few radials out if you want to, this will improve performance. With the antenna low its easy to get to and adjust for the different bands The formula to work out a 1/4 wave is 247.5 didvided by the frequency. EG 247.5 divided by 14.200 = 17.4 ( 17 ft / 4 inches ) 20 mtrs = 17.4 ft 17 mtrs = 13.6 ft 15 mtrs = 11.6 ft 12 mtrs = 9.9 ft Once you find the best vswr on the antenna it can be marked on there and using a jubilee clamp ( compression clamp ) it can be easily adjusted. All those bands for a tenner or less. It does work well, My best DX on mine has been working ZL on 20 mtrs with 100 watts. Mark |
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Gw0wvl http://www.qrz.com/db/GW0WVL Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1568501233420524/ My Youtube site ... http://www.youtube.com/MrMadjones My website ... http://mjmotorbikes.weebly.com/ My Radio website http://gw0wvl.weebly.com/ "It's not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class of Amateur that holds the license" | |
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| PlanetErnie | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 17:09 Post #10 |
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really appreciate all the advice guys. have been checking in and out all day to see what people's thoughts are. there's a lot of good words said so am gonna have a scout around the net and see if i can elaborate on what's been said. thought i'd make a quick video for you guys as well. whilst out portable this afternoon, stateside on hf was coming in really strong via my prowhip and my a99. so i thought 'time to put the a99 back up at home'. this i duly did. put the antenna back on the tk brackets on the back of my garage. mounted it on the 20ft ally pole, run the cable and plugged the radio in. for the rest of this little story, have a gander at the video: also, both my neighbours are away at the mo so i really am at a loss. am now a bit wary of laying out for another hf antenna just to find the same problem. i am a right old miserable get today. sorry guys
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| "if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly!!!" | |
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| MadMark1 | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 17:32 Post #11 |
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163 Charlie Tango 020
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I get simular noise levels on 20 mtrs, its not constant all the way through 20 mtrs, It peaks here and there, just like yours, guess mine is a switchmode supply or a plasma TV in the local area. This is what most of the HF bands are like for most of us now ............. Mark |
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Gw0wvl http://www.qrz.com/db/GW0WVL Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1568501233420524/ My Youtube site ... http://www.youtube.com/MrMadjones My website ... http://mjmotorbikes.weebly.com/ My Radio website http://gw0wvl.weebly.com/ "It's not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class of Amateur that holds the license" | |
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| Cozzmik | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 18:25 Post #12 |
26 Charlie Tango 465
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Thats pretty bad Paul,i take it for granted that i have a s1 of noise at worse. I would try ofcom. well i wouldnt but you know what i mean
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| Tim Taylor | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 20:35 Post #13 |
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26 Charlie Tango 279
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OFCOM my friend - without a doubt. |
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| Mark in Essex | Monday, 29. August 2011, 05:50 Post #14 |
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26 Charlie Tango 037
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Ring Ofcom Paul....had them here three times now, and each time they have sorted the interference out....they DO HELP...... |
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[][img][/img][/url] https://www.youtube.com/user/26TANGOMIKE037/videos Nembutol numbs it all But I prefer alcohol | |
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| PlanetErnie | Monday, 29. August 2011, 08:55 Post #15 |
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ofcom it is then. cheers for that guys. as i've never had to contact them before, i was kinda going on other anorak's experiences so, like you all say, a phone call may be on the agenda. and as for my antenna woes. mark, i took your advice and hack up my old 1/2 wave cb vertical. last night was genuinely the first time i've ever dismantled an antenna and i was really quite impressed with myself (it doesn't take much!). after taking the coil out of the base and re-soldering the centre pin of the so239 to the antenna itself, i hooked it up to my old realistic hf receiver, mounted the antenna on a plastic tube and inserted the whole thing into a patio umbrella stand...and it worked. i hear stations on 20m! i am now that excited, i'm off out to the noise-free countryside and am gonna see if i can tune the blinking thing. again guys, many thanks for the advice. if it hadn't been for your words of support (ooh i'm filling up now!), i think every tad of radio equipment might have ended up in the bin. for me that's kinda uncharacteristic, don't you think???
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| "if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly!!!" | |
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| MadMark1 | Monday, 29. August 2011, 09:11 Post #16 |
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163 Charlie Tango 020
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Paul, do away with the plastic tube , the antenna MUST be earthed using a short tube and the base must be as close to the ground as possible. Basically you want a Ally tube about 3 feet long, Hammer about a foot and a half into the ground and the remaining foot and a half bolt the antenna to it. If you want you can also attach a few radials to the actual antenna mounting bracket, you would require one or two radials per band you want to use it on. The antenna works well with out radials IF the earth connection is good, but the performance is much better with a few radials. It must be mounted like this. ![]() http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad100/madmark42/verticalantennacropped.jpg Mark |
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Gw0wvl http://www.qrz.com/db/GW0WVL Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1568501233420524/ My Youtube site ... http://www.youtube.com/MrMadjones My website ... http://mjmotorbikes.weebly.com/ My Radio website http://gw0wvl.weebly.com/ "It's not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class of Amateur that holds the license" | |
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| VoG | Monday, 29. August 2011, 10:01 Post #17 |
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This is going to sound totally obvious, but for Goodness' Sake make sure all dodgy, iffy, naughty, 11m stuff is OUT OF SIGHT when the Ofcom man comes to your shack. That includes anything that isn't within your Amateur Licence or 100% legit CB kit. So bury any Burners, the 11m Sidebanders, Marine Radio, Business hand-helds and so forth and remember to retune the main radio so that when you turn it on it doesn't go straight to 27.555. Also remember that a modified CB27/81 is illegal. So if you have an old Muppets set that has been modded to have EU/CEPT channels, hide that too. |
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| PlanetErnie | Monday, 29. August 2011, 11:18 Post #18 |
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you can tell that i've been spoilt with the tuner in my ft-450d. am actually starting to understand the physics of it all and, dare i say it, am getting a bit of a kick out of it. last time i properly played around with homebase antennas was back in the days of hardcore 27/81 action ![]() mark, just shoved a metal pole in the ground in my garden and mounted my 'antenna' on that and have managed to tune it on 20m @ 1.7/1 swr and on 17m @ 1.8/1 swr with the adjustments and lengths as you stated. put out a cq call and heard spain come back to me with a 5/6 report. considering the antenna is completely surrounded by trees and houses and i am genuinely only using my allocated 10watts, for a first attempt at homebrew, i don't think that too bad ![]() time to experiment more. cheers mark. and as for your words of advice steve. yep, you're right, that is stating the blatantly obvious. and yep, i wouldn't forgotten to file certain bits of radio gear away so that is definitely good advice so thanks for the heads-up mate
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| "if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly!!!" | |
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| Cozzmik | Monday, 29. August 2011, 11:31 Post #19 |
26 Charlie Tango 465
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Are you still getting the high level of noise on the bands as before Paul. |
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| PlanetErnie | Monday, 29. August 2011, 12:26 Post #20 |
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certainly am mate just not as bad as yesterday. hopefully, the levels of noise yesterday was a one-off. am gonna head off into the sticks in a bit and see how i get on with the planeternie hf multiband vertical antenna
Edited by PlanetErnie, Monday, 29. August 2011, 13:14.
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| "if you're gonna be a bear...be a grizzly!!!" | |
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11m stuff is OUT OF SIGHT when the Ofcom man comes to your shack. That includes anything that isn't within your Amateur Licence or 100% legit CB kit. So bury any Burners, the 11m Sidebanders, Marine Radio, Business hand-helds and so forth and remember to retune the main radio so that when you turn it on it doesn't go straight to 27.555. 
2:43 PM Jul 11